Kubota Motoren, 3 Zylinder, 740ccm und 962ccm

[Pascal Kirchner]

Hi mCHPjr.

Pascal> Yes, that's what I meant, most of the gas conversions are aftermarket job either performed by 3rd party little garages, but sometimes it's a direct cooperation of the auto manufacturer with the gas mod vendor like Landi-Renzo and in that case the ICE engine also could be slightly modified inside, e.g. replaced stronger valve seats etc. : http://www.auto-power-girl.com/high-res ... 2009-1.jpg

The idea about Fiat 1.1-1.2L engine as possible candidate for mCHP was because of small engine yet large production run over the years, but since ~2012 it seems all must be in turbo now (even bi-fuel model) so I'm not sure this is suitable without expensive mods/addons anymore, but there were non turbo small engine gas Fiats decade before that and I'm not sure they got some stronger parts like valve seats or not. But it still seems Renault group is selling most of these gas versions among other brands.

The only thing you need from the engine is the engine block. The rest you can throw away. Most new Intake manifold are made of plastic. So not suitable for the use of wood gas even if you are temperature resistant up to 120 degrees. The complete injection to the engine controller you can not use. Even the ignition, you can not use as it is normally operated from the engine control unit.

So you see there is little usable from the engine ...
And that's why my opinion is take what is often available. Here in Germany, are the small 1 liter engines. The motor also does not have to be brand new. If a used engine block costs 50 € you can replace for 100 times.

regards Pascal

[mCHPjr.]

(plastic manifold and/or other plastic engine parts as opposed to sturdy metal ones of profi BHKW linked previously) http://forum.thedrizzler.com/viewtopic.php?p=1680#p1680
Yep, thanks for your reply, btw. I have seen your older pictures of that disintegrated plastic crap debris scattered all over the engine.. I do agree with your viewpoint on preferring the most available types of used engines (spare parts and wider diy CHP adoption), I'll however rephrase it somewhat differently, lets assume you can get factory modded lpg/cng engine (valve seats and perhaps other bits improved) as surplus in 50-80.000km condition for not very high price as opposed to totally trashed 300-600.000km engine of unknown past for almost free. I'd say there are pros and cons with each approach in terms time/labour/availability.
PS do you currently run more electronics on the engine besides the REV meter and the Lambda system?
PS2 please understand me correctly I'd vote for ~1L VW against Fiat any day

[Pascal Kirchner]

(plastic manifold and/or other plastic engine parts as opposed to sturdy metal ones of profi BHKW linked previously) viewtopic.php?p=1680#p1680
Yep, thanks for your reply, btw. I have seen your older pictures of that disintegrated plastic crap debris scattered all over the engine.. I do agree with your viewpoint on preferring the most available types of used engines (spare parts and wider diy CHP adoption), I'll however rephrase it somewhat differently, lets assume you can get factory modded lpg/cng engine (valve seats and perhaps other bits improved) as surplus in 50-80.000km condition for not very high price as opposed to totally trashed 300-600.000km engine of unknown past for almost free. I'd say there are pros and cons with each approach in terms time/labour/availability.

Which car still holds more than 200,000 kilometers? Mostly then rusted or have electrical problems. A repair is often not profitable. Can completely refurbish the engine block. Also costs a lot. But after that he is as good as new. And much to realize less than 1000 €. Valve seats and other bits you can change in this step. If enough buyers would find on a CHP system it would be always possible, even direct replacement parts to provide in the form of aggregates complete replacement. Easy to install, significantly less than the cost of a new engine.

PS do you currently run more electronics on the engine besides the REV meter and the Lambda system?

Yes it´s a lot of more electronics connected to the engine. Like in a normal car with its Controller.

regards Pascal

[mCHPjr.]

Going back to that small displacement Kubota LPG topic - I'm wondering about the overall cost effective analysis for different generator types and fuel options for DIY CHP generators, the major criteria for this discussion being the availability of the fuel, for instance most people can't directly source their LPG fuel/tank, it must be bought from long supplier chain, but scrap wood and to some extent coal can be obtained and stored in relatively high quantities at least in some regions. Also I'm skeptical about the wooden pellets as they consume either more money and/or additional energy during the manuf. process in contrast to simple one pass wood chipper/sorter.

My dirty quick cross-comparison list of available semi-DIY CHP generator types and fuel
from #1 cheap to most expensive #5:

1. Small car engine ~1.2L, LPG and CHP conversion, + refill of portable or house demand/larger sized LPG tank
2. Small car engine ~1.2L, lowtech gasifier conversion, + DríZzler unit, own source of wood/chips
3. Small car engine ~1.2L, lowtech gasifier conversion, + DríZzler unit, + buying quality/sorted coal chips
4. Small car engine ~1.2L, hitech gasifier conversion ala Pascal, + DríZzler unit, + buying scrap wood chips
5. Small car engine ~1.2L, hitech gasifier conversion ala Pascal, + DríZzler unit, + buying or DIY manuf. wood pellets


Obviously, there are some simplistic assumptions for this "top list" here, system running only few hours per day, so there must be other additional system running in the house, like solar, heat pump etc. If this is not the case, the more complex-costly solutions as #4 have to be preferred.

ps I know it seems like apples to bananas comparison, but we have to assume wider aspect for energy generation

[Pascal Kirchner]

Hi mCHPjr.

Going back to that small displacement Kubota LPG topic - I'm wondering about the overall cost effective analysis for different generator types and fuel options for DIY CHP generators, the major criteria for this discussion being the availability of the fuel, for instance most people can't directly source their LPG fuel/tank, it must be bought from long supplier chain, but scrap wood and to some extent coal can be obtained and stored in relatively high quantities at least in some regions. Also I'm skeptical about the wooden pellets as they consume either more money and/or additional energy during the manuf. process in contrast to simple one pass wood chipper/sorter.

The Answer is not very easy....
It depends on also on your space and also if you have enough place and also the machines to make the fuel. Will the system always only be a hobby project? Or did you really decide to run it also for heat and electric energy? Did you have other sources for energy and also did you have a grid available?

The Costs of the system are also not to easy to describe. If you buy a ready to be used genset without knowing how it works every service must be done from an technican which costs also money.

You are always talking about DIY what did you mean with these DIY ? Some people understanding DIY as a cheap thing?

My dirty quick cross-comparison list of available semi-DIY CHP generator types and fuel
from #1 cheap to most expensive #5:

1. Small car engine ~1.2L, LPG and CHP conversion, + refill of portable or house demand/larger sized LPG tank
2. Small car engine ~1.2L, lowtech gasifier conversion, + DríZzler unit, own source of wood/chips
3. Small car engine ~1.2L, lowtech gasifier conversion, + DríZzler unit, + buying quality/sorted coal chips
4. Small car engine ~1.2L, hitech gasifier conversion ala Pascal, + DríZzler unit, + buying scrap wood chips
5. Small car engine ~1.2L, hitech gasifier conversion ala Pascal, + DríZzler unit, + buying or DIY manuf. wood pellets

Dirty is not a bad thing.
But with scrap mostly the metal parts are cheap. The installation costs if you don´t make it by yourself often explodes. Sometimes it is cheaper to build with new parts. Also think about the day´s when the scrap is broken and you need to readapter new party to the system....

Sure the most people start with scrap cause they cannot believe that it will work. I also did this some years ago. But see how much of this scrap is working now in my system
Every scrap was returned als converted to a new unit. At this point you see that scrap is not everytime a good thing. Also you must calculate your time to work on the system. If you don´t calculate your payment per hour it´s the same like apples to bananas comparison.

My opinion and also my case. If you had enough space and a good source for dry woodchips run your system with this. If you don´t have enough space you must run with pellets. I need about 6 tonns of wood per year. In Pellets you need 6qm to store it. In Woochips you need 24qm of storage. Coal is not an alternative. If you get coal you need the double space as for woodchips. Also the system setup i choosed with the hours of testing and producing the CHP i will newer miss again. The VW engine and also the complete frame setup helps you on every service.

If you don´t use the heat from an watercooled engine forget about the system as running ecologically and economically.

regards Pascal

[mCHPjr.]

What is suggested by that list of possible CHP systems (all using waste heat water) is also the complexity of the system, including the need for sourcing spare parts. It could be the case, temporarily or for longer term, that hitech CHP setup becomes a trap, when for example replacement under-pressure sensors or control electronics module or bearings for hi efficiency PMG etc. are simply no longer available or with huge delivery delays in weeks/months notably during winter time. Not good at all. In such a case simple LPG car engine conversion based CHP system with family house sized LPG tank will be much easier/cheaper to get spares and repair (although not to refuel when finally on empty). In this fashion we can cross evaluate many designs. Hope this view makes sense.

[Pascal Kirchner]

Hi mCHPjr.

What is suggested by that list of possible CHP systems (all using waste heat water) is also the complexity of the system, including the need for sourcing spare parts. It could be the case, temporarily or for longer term, that hitech CHP setup becomes a trap, when for example replacement under-pressure sensors or control electronics module or bearings for hi efficiency PMG etc. are simply no longer available or with huge delivery delays in weeks/months notably during winter time. Not good at all. In such a case simple LPG car engine conversion based CHP system with family house sized LPG tank will be much easier/cheaper to get spares and repair (although not to refuel when finally on empty). In this fashion we can cross evaluate many designs. Hope this view makes sense.

My wood gasifier in on stage in the laboratory. We are not talking about a finished product. Also not about whether you need all these sensors. In the laboratory phase one tries to catch as many values as possible. Whether these are then used later does not matter.

regards Pascal

[mCHPjr.]

Thanks for the update.

I'll try post some specifics on the "family home" sized LPG tanks, it seems the most available sizing is as follows:
aprox. 1600, 2700, 4800 liters. They are made in above ground, semi earth covered or as fully buried underground options (different metal coatings and other details). Let's imagine smallish car 1-1.2 engine based CHP consuming roughly no more than 4L at sub 1500rpm, and running 4hrs per day, that's 16 liters per day or otherwise 100/168/300 days of operation for these above mentioned tank sizes.

Yes, it's a small system example, most likely using other supporting systems is necessary for the main heat storage tank of >1000L (solar, heat pump ; wool sweater & socks), and also equipped with wood/coal burner backup on the loop for deep freezing days etc. But this could be recalculated for more hours per day of operation to see how big LPG tank is eventually needed. Most likely even the smaller tanks could handle such CHP as offgrid-island system on the condition of few loads on them.

The price of LPG at the pump is roughly EUR .5 per liter, perhaps a bit more with the refueling truck deliveries, and there will likely continue in foreseeable future glut of this commodity on the markets as the oil and natural gas producers are having more of this excess "substance" to offer due to changing geology, different needs at refineries etc.